Between Two Advisors - A conversation with Josh Patrick

Discover game-changing strategies to optimize your business operations in this episode of The Money Script Podcast. Host Yohance Harrison welcomes financial advisor Josh Patrick, who shares practical tips for reducing your workload by 50% while boosting profits. Learn the power of time blocking, delegation, and smart pricing to reclaim your time and enhance financial freedom. Whether you're a business owner or aspiring entrepreneur, this episode is packed with actionable insights to make your business work harder for you. Tune in to start your journey toward increased revenue and decreased stress. Don’t miss this transformative discussion!

Don't Take Our Word For It:
"It was great fun helping Yohance take a look at his business. Most of the time podcast hosts want to position themselves as the all seeing experts. Yohance showed a significant amount of vulnerability by letting me ask him probing questions about his business with he getting some coaching on how to create a personally and economically sustainable business." - Josh Patrick

jpatrick@stage2solution.com
www.sustainablebusiness.co
https://www.linkedin.com/in/askjoshpatrick/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC55nHCobcxCG_P9J8PBKUeA/videos -https://www.facebook.com/thesalereadycompany -https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-sustainable-business/id1031040294

Want to spend 15 minutes with one of our advisors?  Please visit moneyscript.com to book a session.

Transcript

Josh Patrick 0:01

This is an exercise everybody hates, but it's where we start. And we call it time blocking, where you write down how you're spending your time in 15 minute increments for two weeks. You then go back and we look at each one of those time blocks and we say, okay, if you were to hire somebody to do this particular job, how much would it cost you per hour to do so? And we get rid of all the stuff that you can hire somebody for for $25 an hour or less, whether that's onshore, offshore, using a virtual assistant or the assistant in your office that will usually get an owner about 15 to 20 hours.

Seth Harrison 0:57

Tuned in to the Money Script Podcast. Today we will share strategies to help you grow your financial literacy and improve your money Script. I'll be back with some important announcements. Until then, enjoy the show.

Yohance Harrison 1:15

Welcome back to the Money Script Podcast.

It's your host, Yohance Harrison. So happy to be with each and every one of you today. It is still in the height of summer for us. It's starting to cool off a little bit. I promise I wouldn't talk about the weather that much, but I was just outside and I'm sweating from just being outside for five minutes. I have a very exciting guest today. I am meeting with another fellow financial advisor. So, yes, between two advisors, you're going. We're going to talk some shop for you. We're going to talk about some of the current events that are going on right now, and we're going to speak directly to some of our business owners out there, give you some tips and tools that you can use going into the end of this year or whenever you're listening this to be able to help you better run your business. Frequently, business owners work incredibly hard for their business and may not be aware of ways that their business can work equally as hard for them. And so that's definitely something that we want to address with you here on the Money Script podcast. I know the image may look a little weird. My cameras, I don't know what's wrong with the camera. I don't know, cookies or drivers or something. It's acting weird. So you got this camera. So yeah, I know it looks like I'm looking up. I am, because the camera's up there instead of being right here. But yeah, first world problems. I'll deal with it. So without any further ado, I'm going to bring in our guest, Mr. Josh Patrick.

Yohance Harrison 2:33

Josh, welcome to the Money Script podcast.

Yohance Harrison 2:35

How are you Sir, I'm well. Wonderful. Thank you for being a guest. So Josh is. He's a registered Investment Advisor with Stage 2 Planning Partners, LLC, and he works primarily with business owners. We were just chopping it up a little bit before we got started here today, and he said he's got some good strategies that he wants to share. As I've said to all of you before, this is the Between Two Advisors podcast that we have here or show that we do here at the Money Script podcast, where you get to hear two professionals just really discuss strategies that we're using and best practices to help our clients so that you as a listener may have the opportunity to take this back to your advisor or reach out to a new advisor for some of these strategies. So, Josh, first thing you mentioned to me is that you've been doing podcasting for eight years.

Josh Patrick 2:37

Thanks for having me.

Yohance Harrison 2:57

So I'm looking to learn from him.

Josh Patrick 3:26

I mean, yeah, we just suspended our show. We're going to bring it back, though, as a different. Is a slightly different animal.

Yohance Harrison 3:30

Just.

Yohance Harrison 3:35

Okay, so what was the animal before? What was it?

Josh Patrick 3:38

It was called cracking the Cash Flow code. And essentially it's about how do you create cash flow in a private business? The next iteration of the show will be called the 5050 show, where we talk about how you're going to. How you can increase your profits by 50% and decrease the time you're working by 50% over the course of a year. So

Josh Patrick 4:04

what we're finding is most business owners are more interested in reducing the time they work and increasing the money they make.

Josh Patrick 4:16

They want to do both, but if you give them, say, one or the other, they want to decrease the time they're working.

Yohance Harrison 4:23

So it's funny that you. You mentioned that, Josh, is that as I was bringing you on, one of the things I mentioned is that typically business owners work incredibly hard for their business, and they may not be aware of ways and methods that their business can work equally as hard for them. And a big part of that is understanding cash flow. I spent. I had a client that asked me last week. She said, you know, I need to look at my cash flow because I need to make some cuts. And, you know, I'm. I'm thinking with my business mind, I was like, oh, great. Well, let's look at your income statement. Here's your income statement. Here's where everything is. You know, basically the P and L, here's the numbers. And it was absolutely not helpful to her at all because she doesn't manage her Business from a P and L statement. She managed her business day to day. You know, the debit card, the credit card, the ongoing expenses. So that is what switched in my brain said, wait, she needs a vendor list. She needs to see who all of her vendors are so then she can make some intelligent decisions about her cash flow and what things she can cut out, you know, what sort of, you know, ongoing subscriptions that she may have that she may, may not be getting full use out of or, or where there just might be money falling through the cracks, so to speak.

Yohance Harrison 4:57

Here's.

Josh Patrick 5:37

So, yeah, we call that checkbook accounting.

Yohance Harrison 5:40

Yes. Checkbook accounting. Yes. Good old. I remember when we used to do it in just Excel spreadsheets or on a legal pad. Those were the days. Those were the days. So are you, are you able to speak of the new animal that is being created?

Josh Patrick 5:54

Which one?

Yohance Harrison 5:55

You said it's going away and coming back as a new animal.

Josh Patrick 5:58

Oh, you mean that my podcast. Yeah, the podcast is going to be. I, I have had, in the past, I've had all sorts of really good advisors come on the show and this time around it's going to be all business owners and we're going to talk about their business and what they can do to increase their profits by 50% and decrease their time at work by 50%. So it's going to be practical from people who are actually in the trenches and they'll get a chance to hear when people push back and when they say, gee, that's something I want to do, and hopefully they go and do it.

Yohance Harrison 6:00

Yes.

Yohance Harrison 6:39

Can you, can you, can you tease me a little bit? I mean, how. You don't have to give me the whole 50. But what are some of the, what are some of the things that you've learned over the years that you've been doing this? Because for those of you watching, Josh has got a couple of years on me. Maybe one more gray hair than I do. So I'm just curious, what are some of the things that you've picked up over the years? Because I am a business owner, so I'm, I'm intrigued, I'm curious myself.

Josh Patrick 7:02

The number one thing that business owners can do to decrease their time. This is an exercise everybody hates, but it's where we start and we call it time blocking, where you write down how you're spending your time in 15 minute increments for two weeks. You then go back and we look at each one of those time blocks and we say, okay, if you were to hire somebody to do this particular job, how much Would it cost you per hour to do so? And we get rid of all the stuff that you can hire somebody for for $25 an hour or less, whether that's onshore, offshore, using a virtual assistant or the assistant in your office that will usually get an owner about 15 to 20 hours.

Yohance Harrison 7:58

I'm smiling and laughing because, Josh, that is exactly what I did about five years ago now. I went through an exercise with a mentor. He was actually on the show recently about two episodes back, how to 2x your business. And that is exactly what we did together. I had to, I had timer going off every 15 minutes and I had a journal. I just had to jot down what I was doing. I built a spreadsheet out of it later on and I had to mark whether it gave me joy or sucked my energy. And if it was a revenue driving task or an administrative task. And at the end we sorted them all and we had this list of, I don't know, 15, 16 items. And he said, what if you just didn't have to do those anymore? And I was, But I was one of those business owners that was extremely reluctant to hire because I came from corporate America where, for lack of a better term, most people were hired and managed for me. I mean, I, I ran the office, but, you know, I had an HR department and I had, you know, had all these other tools that were there where, yes, I would conduct the final interview of a staff person and then they was plug and play. They, I wasn't, I wasn't necessarily their go to leader. I was a leader, but they reported to some other leadership structure somewhere else as a staff individual. So the idea of managing staff, my, my brain just wasn't able to compute it. But I finally let go and did it. And you're absolutely correct, it didn't. It drove. My revenues went up a lot more than when I was paying that staff member.

Josh Patrick 8:35

Yeah.

Josh Patrick 8:42

Yep.

Josh Patrick 9:43

Yeah, well, that's, that's the whole point. I call that the, the free hire. And the second thing you can do to decrease time, which is relatively simple, is learn how to delegate. Most people are terrible at delegating and they try it, it didn't work and they quit. They say it's just easier for me to do it myself. Yeah, well, if you stay in the easier to do it myself world, you're going to work 60 to 80 hours a week for the rest of your life and you're going to get to be 60 years old and be unhappy. So that's not a great idea. Also, if you don't want to delegate. Your business will never grow past 15 to 20 people. Because if you want to grow your business past 15 to 20 people and if you're in a professional services business, you're likely not going to do that because that's a very big professional.

Yohance Harrison 10:38

That's big. I was, that's what I was saying. That's a very large.

Josh Patrick 10:40

But if you're, let's say you're a construction company, 15 to 20 people is only two crews and a person in your office. So if you want to grow your business past that, you have to learn how to delegate, you have to learn how to hire, you have to learn how to delegate, and you have to learn to work on the business, not in the business. I know. It's a, that's one of those stupid things people say all the time. That happens to be true. Then on the, on the profit side, that's actually relatively easy. Usually all you have to do is I ask somebody what percent of the people you make a proposal to say no because you're too expensive.

Josh Patrick 11:24

And if they say less than 10%, which I usually hear, and say, okay, here's what we're going to do. We're going to raise your prices by 20%.

Yohance Harrison 11:34

Josh. That's the hardest one for me to accept. That one's tough for me. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm a, I'm a, I'm what they call a cash flow financial planner. So I'm very aware and in tune to my clients gripes and complaints about inflation and costs going up, etc, and I have not done a good job. Actually. I'm just going to say it. Don't cut this out when you hear it. Leave it in there. I've never raised my prices.

Josh Patrick 12:07

And how long have you been in business for?

Yohance Harrison 12:09

Eight years.

Josh Patrick 12:11

Okay, I take it back.

Yohance Harrison 12:13

Hold on. Take that. I've never raised prices for an existing client. Customer. I have increased my costs as new people are coming on. So someone that just started me last year, my minimum fee is much higher than it was eight years ago. But for existing clients.

Josh Patrick 12:32

Well, you can't afford to serve a client you were serving eight years ago. If you've not raised their price, you're losing money on them.

Yohance Harrison 12:40

That's true. So let's dive into this one because I'm, I'm curious. I mean, but, but, but

Yohance Harrison 12:49

isn't there,

Yohance Harrison 12:52

isn't there a risk though of,

Yohance Harrison 12:57

of losing people because you will lose a couple of customers.

Josh Patrick 13:03

But if you take a look and you. And you run this out. If I increase my prices by 20%, I lose 5% of my customers. Am I ahead of the game?

Yohance Harrison 13:16

I just did that math. Yes, significantly, actually.

Josh Patrick 13:19

Significantly. That about doubles your profits, by the way.

Yohance Harrison 13:24

Wow. I'm gonna have to think through this one, Josh. I didn't know that's where we were going in this podcast, but you got my wheels turning a little bit because, yeah, I've, I've, I've never. As a matter of fact, I have a few clients love them dearly because I was in corporate America with a firm prior to starting my RIA and they've been with me the whole way and have been paying the same fee for

Yohance Harrison 13:51

20 years.

Josh Patrick 13:53

So do you do a percent of assets or do you charge by the hour or, or an annual retainer?

Yohance Harrison 13:59

I do a, I do an annual retainer. And if, if I'm also doing the investment management, there's a, a percentage fee on the investment. So I, I go with a low investment fee and then do the flat fee to go along with it because I, I find more joy and value in doing the plan than I do managing the assets. Right. So it's kind of, I try to make it so, like it's almost a 50, 50. So half your fee is being paid by the investments and the other half is being paid by the flat fee. But it's that flat fee. Because here's the problem. The larger the account balance, the lower the fee on the investments. It's kind of built in, it's scaled up. So, you know, you go from450,000 to500,000. Instead of paying 1%, you're now paying 0.85 or whatever the number is. Yeah, there's more assets there, but it's 15% less cost. Meanwhile, that financial planning fee hasn't budged.

Josh Patrick 14:47

Sure.

Josh Patrick 14:51

So what do you charge? Here's what I would recommend. If I was in your shoes, I would raise my planning fee every year by 5%.

Josh Patrick 15:07

I probably would raise it by 10 to 20. I would go back and reset fee fees for your entire book of business.

Josh Patrick 15:16

And the truth is, some people, they know if you've not raised your prices in eight years, the people who are working with you are wondering what's wrong.

Josh Patrick 15:27

I haven't thought they're expecting you could raise their prices by 20% and likely none of them are going to leave because you haven't raised their prices. And it should be 40% higher than what they're charging right now. And what's the Deal. What's the delta between your present price structure and what you're charging eight years ago?

Yohance Harrison 15:54

100. It's gone up 100%. I've doubled.

Josh Patrick 15:56

Okay, so if you raised your prices by 50%, they're still getting a 50% discount.

Yohance Harrison 16:02

Yeah, they are.

Josh Patrick 16:05

Which is how I would present it.

Yohance Harrison 16:06

Yeah, no, that's true. That's a good point.

Josh Patrick 16:09

I mean, it's just, you know, the truth is everything is more expensive every year.

Yohance Harrison 16:14

It is. And that, and that's, and that's the other thing that I've been grappling. I mean, I've managed personally to grow my business over the years through new clients, more assets, etc, so I've made it and I've had amazing growth with new clients. Thank you, all of you new clients out there listening and the referrals of those clients. Thank you, thank you. And thank you for the continued referrals. So I've managed to grow. So that's what's been able to help me

Yohance Harrison 16:39

cover the cost of being in business is growth. But I'm getting to the point where it's, it's becoming more difficult to grow because just capacity issues and the amount of families that I'm working with, the amount of days in the week, you know, and, and I'm starting to hear from clients like, oh, I went to go schedule an appointment and I can't find anything until, you know, late October. I'm, I'm 45 days to 55 days out on scheduling. And that's just because of the sheer volume of the amount of people that are there. So it's getting to a point where I'm saying, okay, I don't know that I want to continue to bring on 30, 40 clients a year, but yet all of my, every single vendor I have has given me a price increase. I said, a vendor last week, increased price. They doubled. Like, hey, we've been giving you this great service for a long time. We haven't a price increase. It's doubling. And I didn't bat an eye because I enjoy the service. I'm going to continue to use them. So I was like, well, they've been undercharging me for a while. I didn't. Nothing happened. And charge went right on through as it usually does. And I kept using the program as I have been. So it is getting to a point where the only way I'm going to be able to keep up with the cost of running my business if it's not through getting new clients, it's going to have to be some sort of price increase for the existing clients.

Josh Patrick 17:55

The other thing you need to do is you need to hire yourself an associate planner who can take your small clients.

Yohance Harrison 18:01

My wife sits for a CFP in November. That's her.

Josh Patrick 18:05

Okay, that's her. That gives you more capacity. And the other thing you want to think about, or what I would recommend you think about is take a look at your book in 80 20. In other words, 80% of your revenue is coming from 20% of your clients.

Yohance Harrison 18:08

Yes.

Yohance Harrison 18:22

Probably Pareto's principle. Yes, sir.

Josh Patrick 18:25

So especially in the financial services business, it's really important to call your book of business every once in a while. You're going to find you've got clients who are probably in the bottom 20% and you're losing money on every single one of them.

Yohance Harrison 18:41

Every single one of them. I coned my book in the first quarter

Yohance Harrison 18:48

and we said, well, I gave them the option. I said, either you're going to give me more of your assets to manage, or so if it was a client where maybe they had low assets, were just paying a planning fee, it's like, okay, either you need to give me more assets to manage because I know you have it, or find another advisor. Or if it was someone that had the assets and weren't doing the planning, we need to do the planning, or you know, you can do this investment stuff on your own because I don't even know what goals you have. I just have a, you know, IRA with 100,000 in it. That's all I know. So that's, that doesn't bring me any joy to come and do this work.

Josh Patrick 19:25

One thing you can do is you can give your clients an option. You can say, look at. If you in. If you give me your assets to invest, here's your fee. If you don't give me your assets to invest, here's your fee, which is x3 probably or 4. You know, again, client can make a decision about how they want to work with you. You don't need to cut your revenue. And essentially what I would be thinking about is with your model, I would say, what's the net worth of the person I'm working with? And I want to have a percent of their net worth as my fee every year. How I get there? Well, it can be a combination, but I'm going to look at the net worth of what they are and I want to percent of that as my.

Yohance Harrison 20:13

Fee and that is how I set the fees. It's just like I said, over eight years net worths have grown. And my fee has essentially shrank as a percentage of that net worth. So no, man, I didn't know I was coming here today to the Money Script podcast to get a lesson from you. Josh. I appreciate this. This is awesome. So enough about me. Thank you for those tips and listeners. For those of you, especially clients, you know who I'm talking to that are in the services business like I am, all of these things apply. If you're in a services business, this applies. I'm talking to you CPAs. I'm talking to you attorneys. I'm talking to you health coaches and the service business industry. I'm even talking to you barbers. Okay, this, these same concepts apply. You can apply these to your. But you're going to have to take some time to, as Josh mentioned earlier, work on the business and not so much working in the business. So make sure you're setting aside that time, at least on a weekly, if not a monthly, Definitely, definitely a quarterly basis for more looking at the bigger picture so you can think through some of these concepts that we discussed today. So you can help yourself. As Josh said, increase your revenues by 50% and decrease the time you spend in your business by 50 as well. Because that sounds lovely, especially if we just got through summer. Summer went by too quick. I did not travel enough. So, Josh, one thing we like to do on the Money Script podcast and I fail to do it with our last guest. And all of you, thank you for calling me out. I got the DMS and the messages. I know we're going to go back and we're going to visit with her again and we will ask Dr. Bush the question because we forgot to ask her. But I will ask Josh this question to you, and this is something we ask all of our guests when we think about Money Scripts. I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of Money Scripts. I didn't think of it. I just happened to come up with the same name around the same time for my practice. But when I, when we, when I was thinking of the concept of Money Script, what would it reminds me of is my first memory of money. So that is a question we like to ask to all of our guests. So if you could share with us, Josh, what is, what was or is your first memory of money?

Josh Patrick 20:21

Yes.

Josh Patrick 22:28

When I was seven years old, I used to work for my father in this wholesale tobacco company because he paid a nickel a case to put boxes of candy on the shelf.

Yohance Harrison 22:43

A nickel a case.

Josh Patrick 22:45

That was 1959.

Yohance Harrison 22:48

That is some inflation for you. Now, just out of curiosity, what could you buy with that nickel?

Josh Patrick 22:54

You could buy a candy bar.

Yohance Harrison 22:55

There you go. I don't think there's any candle but candy bars for a nickel anymore.

Josh Patrick 23:00

There are not. They're mostly like a dollar 25.

Yohance Harrison 23:03

25? Yeah. I like to tell that story as well. When I could buy a lot for a little, my favorites, when I used to, I used to cut grass and I would take the little 2 gallon gas can and for $2 I could put gas. I could fill that can up and have enough left over to get myself a soda and a candy bar so I could walk back home. But now $2 will not fill up that gas can. But that is probably not so out of curiosity that, that first memory of money, how, how do you think that still is ingrained or affects the decisions that you make now as well?

Josh Patrick 23:42

My father had a real scarcity mentality around money and he used money as a, as a

Josh Patrick 23:52

use me, use money as a club. So.

Josh Patrick 23:59

And I've rebelled against that. So I'm sort of a. I've always had enough money. I don't really worry about it. I've never become rich because it's not a focus of mine. I'm more interested in having interesting things and sees the money has always worked out on its own. I have a kind of a strange attitude when I work with business owners. I want a business budget. I do not want a personal budget because I find personal budgets are seen as punishments and people hate doing it. So I just say, look it, you're going to. You can. You've been managing your personal life for years. If you're running a successful business, you've been doing it for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. You've got financial controls that are sort of under control. You want to do a personal budget, have fun. But if you don't want to do one, don't do it. Just look at your checkbook and make sure you have enough dough there. Now what I do focus people on is having enough assets so they can become financially free from their business.

Josh Patrick 25:11

And we force them. We have a. I have a tool I made up called the four Boxes of Financial Independence. And essentially it's designed to prove to a business owner that their business will not get them to retirement. In fact, it's probably the second or third most valuable asset they'll have when they finally stop working.

Yohance Harrison 25:35

Interesting.

Josh Patrick 25:37

I can tell you very easily. Let's say you have a business that makes $200,000 a year. You're living on $150,000 a year, you sell that business for a million dollars

Josh Patrick 25:49

after taxes and fees, you're left with maybe $600,000. If you're lucky, $500,000. Probably more likely, well, let's say $600,000. Now, if you use the 4% rule, which may or may not be accurate, that's 4% of the assets you can spend every year. That's $32,000. $32,000 is a long way from $150,000.

Josh Patrick 26:15

So what are you going to do to make up the rest of that money?

Yohance Harrison 26:19

Get a job.

Josh Patrick 26:21

Now, there's things you can do. I call it pre funding your retirement. Pre funding. Especially if you're in a service business. If you're in a service business, you're. Let's say you have a small CPA firm. You're not going to get a ton of dough for that. You might be living at $200,000 a year, $300,000 a year. What you can do is you can pre fund your retirement. Especially, especially if you're over 50. You know, a question I ask people often is, if you don't have any rules, how much money do you want to put in your retirement plan every year?

Yohance Harrison 26:36

No.

Yohance Harrison 26:55

Man, all of it.

Josh Patrick 26:56

And I've never had anybody tell me the number is bigger than I've been able to design.

Yohance Harrison 27:03

Oh, got it.

Josh Patrick 27:05

Because we use what's called a cash balance plan and combine that with a 401k and a profit sharing plan. If you're 55 years old, you could put about $300,000 a year away. I don't know any small business owner that's in the position to save $300,000 a year. Tons of them at 150 to 200, but I've never had one at 300. I will someday.

Yohance Harrison 27:27

Maybe someday. Someday. Someday. No, that, that's. That. That is good. So again, service industry, you heard it here. Josh is dropping the jewels on us. So out of curiosity, Josh, if, if anyone listening wants to learn more and, and get some information from you, how can they find you?

Josh Patrick 27:50

My email address is jpatricktage2sample.com

Josh Patrick 27:56

that's the number two. Or you go check out our website, www. Sustainable business co as.conot.com

Josh Patrick 28:07

and check out our stuff there. We're in the process of updating it and maybe someday we'll actually get it done.

Yohance Harrison 28:15

There you go. I like it. Well, of course we'll put all those links in our show notes. Josh, I want to thank you so much for spending some time on the Money Strip Podcast. Again, if you are a business owner, you got some great tips here on how you can find ways to work less in your business while driving more revenue. You heard me get a little vulnerable myself and think about some things that I need to consider in my practice. So clients, if you're listening, we're going to have a conversation. Especially if you've been with me a little while, we get to have a conversation. It does cost me more to deliver that great value to you. I'm going to have to pass a little of that on to you as well, since I am probably the only service in your life that hasn't had an increase in the last eight years. So we'll talk about it. It's a negotiation, we'll talk about it. And I look forward to having the conversation. So again, we thank you, Josh, for spending some time on the MoneyShare podcast. As I've always said, please tell a friend to tell a friend to tell another friend to increase your financial literacy today and we will see you next time. Take care.

Josh Patrick 29:20

Peace.

Seth Harrison 29:30

I'm back. Wasn't that a great show? I hope you learned something. I know I did. Now before you go trying anything you heard today, remember it is not intended to be specific tax or legal advice. If you need that, go see a CPA or an attorney. If you would like any complimentary consultation with a knowledgeable advisor, visit moneyscript.com and schedule a 15 minute consultation. Want Johans to come speak at your next event? Go to the Money Script website for that too. Of course, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure to like, comment, subscribe and click the bell for notifications. MoneyScript Wealth Management is a registered financial advisory service in multiple states. Want to learn more? Get the full disclosure on our website moneyscript.com

Seth Harrison 30:13

sa.